Loosecollector

[Alt]

Oh, I actively want to ruin that for people.
Legit. I have an ENTIRE fucking thesis on why we need to destroy this entire mentality.


Yep.
We also have to always allow for something that tends to make people uncomfortable to -really- acknowledge: People are liars. I know you want to believe that the person sincerely thinks they saw something. But they might just be lying. Why? Who knows. People lie for all kinds of reasons and for -NO- reason. But they lie. Constantly. And even the most sincere-sounding person on earth could just be fucking lying to your face.

I'm open to it when you're ready.

 

[RicksNerdLife]

"I have heard footsteps" is a super common experience, I'm sure I've even had that experience once or twice.

This is a classic example of what I mean, there's an assumption in here that is nearly invisible because of the way we think. What folks heard was a series of sounds that seemed like they moved from one area to another. They interpreted those as the sounds of footsteps. Nothing wrong with that assumption usually, it's based on information people have parsed before, it will be accurate most of the time. It's "this is like that, therefore it is probably that". Good for day to day. But when people parse that information in an unusual context, it becomes less reliable.

Someone heard some sounds that reminded them of a thing they'd heard before, in a place that thing should not have been.

That may be the sum total of the facts in play. But because that is a story without a narrative, without an explanation, people fill in the gaps. And from that a noise becomes a footstep, and because a "footstep" must have a foot, a noise now becomes a ghost. But we haven't actually confirmed it's a footstep. And since the event is in the past, we can't go back and be sure what it was.

We don't know. We can't know.

The human mind has a tendency to take "I don't know" and then translate it to "therefore I DO know, and it MUST be X".

Like, I could tell you about stuff I've seen that you would say "oh, you saw a spaceship" and I would say "no, I saw SOMETHING hat appeared to be airborne, and I have no way of finding out what it was". Even if we establish it wasn't a random minor hallucination (a thing that happens to many people because brains are weird and sometimes just glitch), we'd still have to rule out all the possible things it could have been (planes, fireworks, drones, weather phenomena, animals, etc). And if we established it was none of those things (already impossible), we'd have to rule out all he other impossible things it could have been. Why would it have been aliens and not angels for example? Why not ghosts? Why not fairies?

"I have seen odd stuff" can be a complete statement. To say more is me inventing where I cannot verify. It's me making up a story to give that experience narrative and explanation. And of course, I'm happy to make up stories in lots of ways every day. I make up stories about how the friends I talk to think about me, because I can't know what they actually think. I make up stories about how the world is working around me because I can't actually sit and monitor every interaction at a micro level to be sure. But there is a difference to me between those stories, and the ones that if true would fundamentally change the nature of the world. Ghosts are not a passive belief. You can't believe in them without also believing in other things. And that web of beliefs has knock-on effects to your thinking overall.

edit: and none of this is to say "ghosts/aliens/bigfoot don't exist", it's to say "that is very far down the list of things that could explain these experiences". It's the horses not zebras thing.

I find this mentality to be so dismissive and borderline offensive.

You are taking the experiences that people have had--in this case, you mention my specific incidents, therefore I am compelled to reply--and discrediting them under the notion that I am not cognizant of what I heard or have seen.

Now again, I have a very analytical mind, I look for the horses, and I am open to rational explanations.

But when the attic I refer to is direct above the bedroom I am sitting in, and I am home alone, and I hear movement, including floor creaking, and independent thuds, and those thuds go from the right side of the room to the left in rhythmic step--I either have a person living in my attic, or...? Never heard it before, have not heard it since.

Again, in this house that I type this post from, have had things on two separate occasions whiz past me and at an accelerated rate, and hit the wall behind where I am standing. And on the one occasion, I turn in time to see it coming. Straight line, through the air. I'm certainly not lying about this experience. My brain didn't glitch. And there is no Earthly explanation for this. There was no wind, there was no person, there was no animal, there was no magnetic shift that was noted by a scientist, there was no imagination. It happened and my reactions was "Huh. What the fuck? That was weird". It was an experience. Now...was it a ghost, the spirit of a human being, a demon?

There is no way to prove THAT. But there is also no way to prove that it wasn't.

I guess my issue here is in your approach. The wording of you response and mindset is, as I've said, dismissive and insulting. Not only to me--again, since decided to single out my expeeriences--but to anyone that's had them and shared their stories.

This is the reason people do NOT share them, because of people like you and yohr approach to addressing them.

My wife is genius level intelligent. Has her Master's, multiple degrees, is one of the most level-headed people I know, calm and cool under pressure, again, and as I've mentioned, a highly rated and highly accredited medical professional, and aside from all of that, a skeptic. Are you going to tell her that her shared experiences are figments of her imagination? That she had a brain glitch? That she simply "Filled in the space to make it logical in her mind"?

I'm sure you would.

 

[Damien]

That is the most uncharitable and straight-up false reading of what Jake said that you could possibly come up with, Rick. When someone explains how human brains -work-, to respond to that by saying they are somehow insulting your intelligence is wildly ridiculous. Human brains DO create things (like the way we pattern-recognize ourselves into seeing faces in toast and shit - it's not that the person DOESN'T see it, it's that they see it because the brain is connecting its own dots for reasons we don't have conscious control over).

This is why 'non-believers' have such a struggle dealing with people that believe in the supernatural/other. If we explain why we don't think these things are true or real (or aren't convinced - some people aren't saying they DON'T think their real but rather they don't know if it's real), it's taken as 'you're insulting my intelligence' and 'you think I'm crazy.' Which isn't true. It's nonsense gaslighting and self-victimization.

 

[scottg10]

I'm in the "there's a lot of shit we can't explain and explanations people come up with are probably wrong because we don't understand it yet." Seems like reality is always much more mundane than we want it to be.

On the topic of Santa, I cried like a little bitch when I found out. I think I was a bit sad about the spell being broken, but I was sad and angry that my parents - the people I trusted for literally everything up until that point - lied to me. Knowingly and consistently. That shit broke me.

I don’t remember if I ever really believed in Santa, and if so, when that stopped. I’m Jewish (though not at all religious then or now), so Santa never brought me any gifts. Eight nights of presents was all well and good, but I would have taken Santa, a tree and Christmas Day over that anytime. Which is probably why I love Christmas episodes and load up on Christmas movies around the holidays every year.

 

[Alt]

I don’t remember if I ever really believed in Santa, and if so, when that stopped. I’m Jewish (though not at all religious then or now), so Santa never brought me any gifts. Eight nights of presents was all well and good, but I would have taken Santa, a tree and Christmas Day over that anytime. Which is probably why I love Christmas episodes and load up on Christmas movies around the holidays every year.

My dad lived for the coal footprints in the hearth and tree area, footsteps and deer tracks outside (and the roof!), leaving some cookies and Reindeer carrots and even a note.

I'm the oldest of five so even when the magic was known, it still seemed like the best logic that got me toys with the adolescent stuff. And in our house, the big ticket items like the game consoles came from Santa. Worth the kayfabe.

One girlfriend's family did similar, but the big ticket items came from the Parents. You had to recognize that the Parents worked and made the PlayStation and Gameboys happen. The way she explained it and criticized the "fantasy" my parents did... I get it, but I feel like claiming and wanting credit misses the point of Gifts as a concept in the first place, even if I just got you snacks at the gas station unprompted.

 

[RicksNerdLife]

That is the most uncharitable and straight-up false reading of what Jake said that you could possibly come up with, Rick. When someone explains how human brains -work-, to respond to that by saying they are somehow insulting your intelligence is wildly ridiculous. Human brains DO create things (like the way we pattern-recognize ourselves into seeing faces in toast and shit - it's not that the person DOESN'T see it, it's that they see it because the brain is connecting its own dots for reasons we don't have conscious control over).

This is why 'non-believers' have such a struggle dealing with people that believe in the supernatural/other. If we explain why we don't think these things are true or real (or aren't convinced - some people aren't saying they DON'T think their real but rather they don't know if it's real), it's taken as 'you're insulting my intelligence' and 'you think I'm crazy.' Which isn't true. It's nonsense gaslighting and self-victimization.

Uh, no. It actually isn't. I think I read it pretty straight forward, as well as your response about "people are liars".

And you only say this as someone that falls under his camp of belief. So, thank you for your input, but I reject this response.

Again, you are the reason those who have experiences refuse to share them. So, if you want to point fingers, I can point them right back.

 

[JakeEkiss]

I find this mentality to be so dismissive and borderline offensive.

You are taking the experiences that people have had--in this case, you mention my specific incidents, therefore I am compelled to reply--and discrediting them under the notion that I am not cognizant of what I heard or have seen.

I certainly wasn't trying to call you out. Like I said, it's a SUPER common experience. An experience I've had. It comes up a lot and I have used it before, along with my experience seeing stuff in the sky, to illustrate how I think about it, and why.

I even added the edit at the bottom before you replied to try to stem any notion that I was trying to say outright "it can't be this", because, again I sincerely believe "I don't know, and cannot know" is a valid and complete answer. I'm emphatically not saying you didn't have the experiences you had, nor that they couldn't be the things you attribute them to. I'm explaining why, under the same circumstances, having had nearly identical experiences, I draw a different conclusion.

If some extra stuff is being read in there, that I somehow think less of you or am insulting your intelligence, that is not intended nor would I stand by it. If that's what transmitted, I rescind the entire comment and apologize. My bad, please ignore me.

 

[RicksNerdLife]

I certainly wasn't trying to call you out. Like I said, it's a SUPER common experience. An experience I've had. It comes up a lot and I have used it before, along with my experience seeing stuff in the sky, to illustrate how I think about it, and why.

I even added the edit at the bottom before you replied to try to stem any notion that I was trying to say outright "it can't be this", because, again I sincerely believe "I don't know, and cannot know" is a valid and complete answer. I'm emphatically not saying you didn't have the experiences you had, nor that they couldn't be the things you attribute them to. I'm explaining why, under the same circumstances, having had nearly identical experiences, I draw a different conclusion.

If some extra stuff is being read in there, that I somehow think less of you or am insulting your intelligence, that is not intended nor would I stand by it. If that's what transmitted, I rescind the entire comment and apologize. My bad, please ignore me.

Absolutely no worries. Thank you for clarifying. I have had no issues with you previous to this, you said your piece, I voiced my objections, you clarified-- I harbor no ill will or grudge. We are good. My apologies for being confrontational over it.

 

[Damien]

Uh, no. It actually isn't. I think I read it pretty straight forward, as well as your response about "people are liars".

It is. As clarified by Jake. You took the worst possible reading of what he was saying, going so far as to read into it things he didn't say. You just don't ever admit to any wrongdoing so it COULDN'T be that you read into something or mistook something. Had to be Jake being a cunt and calling you dumb, right?

And people do lie. That has nothing to do with the validity of entire fields of study, and I didn't say it did. I said that people lie, and we have to keep that in mind when examining the validity of individual claims. If you disagree with that statement, you're a fucking moron. And I don't believe you are so....?

And you only say this as someone that falls under his camp of belief. So, thank you for your input, but I reject this response.

I said it as someone that read and understood his post and didn't read it looking to be offended. And, big surprise, I was correct in my interpretation of his post. Because, again, I wasn't up in my own feelings about it in the first place.

Again, you are the reason those who have experiences refuse to share them. So, if you want to point fingers, I can point them right back.

Fuck off with your whiny little victim bullshit. This is exactly why no one takes this shit seriously from people like you. EVERY refutation, no matter how mild and inclusive, is seen as a direct attack on your sanity and/or intelligence. Literally "brains do weird things and instinctively try to fill in blanks in understanding/awareness" gets twisted into "SO MY FUCKING BRAIN DOESN'T WORK!?" Like, grow the fuck up.

 

[RicksNerdLife]

It is. As clarified by Jake. You took the worst possible reading of what he was saying, going so far as to read into it things he didn't say. You just don't ever admit to any wrongdoing so it COULDN'T be that you read into something or mistook something. Had to be Jake being a cunt and calling you dumb, right?

And people do lie. That has nothing to do with the validity of entire fields of study, and I didn't say it did. I said that people lie, and we have to keep that in mind when examining the validity of individual claims. If you disagree with that statement, you're a fucking moron. And I don't believe you are so....?



I said it as someone that read and understood his post and didn't read it looking to be offended. And, big surprise, I was correct in my interpretation of his post. Because, again, I wasn't up in my own feelings about it in the first place.



Fuck off with your whiny little victim bullshit. This is exactly why no one takes this shit seriously from people like you. EVERY refutation, no matter how mild and inclusive, is seen as a direct attack on your sanity and/or intelligence. Literally "brains do weird things and instinctively try to fill in blanks in understanding/awareness" gets twisted into "SO MY FUCKING BRAIN DOESN'T WORK!?" Like, grow the fuck up.

You are a moderator, asshole.

Fucking act like one. The actual fuck is wrong with you? Me and Jake are good. You and I are not. Jesus fucking Christ. Do you think this is at all proportional to what he and I said to one another?

@TheSameIdiot

 

[Damien]

You are a moderator, asshole.

Fucking act like one. The actual fuck is wrong with you?

@TheSameIdiot

Cry some more.

I am a moderator. And as a moderator, you can fuck off with this attempt to steamroll people by acting all offended. You insult other members and then act like you're entitled to do that, but Jesus Fucking Christ, if someone says the most mild thing you don't like it's a whole goddamn -situation-.

No one even insulted you until you started acting like a prick because Jake said something totally normal and rational and you decided to take it as an attack. Your response to him was absolutely rude and ignorant - enough so that you even apologized for it. And even then, all I said was that you were not being fair in your reading of his response (again, I was correct about that). You made yourself the victim of a non-existent crime and then acted like a prick to me for pointing it out.

So again.. grow up.

Edit: Let's not so drastically underestimate my ability to 'get the last word in.'

 

[AceofKnaves]

Moderators can see deleted posts.

Let’s seriously end this now.

 

[RicksNerdLife]

Yeah, deleted posts, which means if I've said something and realized it isn't worth it, or if it was only extending an argument further than it needed to, it got deleted.

And clearly, I wanted what I just said to be seen.

Was that supposed to be a gotcha? I'm genuinely confused.

How ANY of you find this shit above to be acceptable is beyond me. This guy is supposed to be de-escalating situations, and here he is causing a bigger ruckus than there needed to be.
This isn't the first time, positive it won'tbe the last. And I'm sure you are in your little Mod group chat discussing this right now, but if you would like to see this forum experience any level of growth, this approach to the moderating is not the way to go about it.

You can not be both a confrontational participant on a forum AND unbiased, impartial judge.

Jake and I are fine. We were fine. We would have gotten there without ANY of this. Be so fucking for real.

 

[AceofKnaves]

Was that supposed to be a gotcha? I'm genuinely confused.

It was supposed to be a “knock it off”.

So please do.

And I'm sure you are in your little Mod group chat discussing this right now, but if you would like to see this forum experience any level of growth, this approach to the moderating is not the way to go about it.

I have no stake in this argument beyond needing it to end. The moderation team is not a social club.

If you have comments about the running of the board, take it to PM or the appropriate thread.

 

[AceofKnaves]

This guy is supposed to be de-escalating situations

Sigh. I need to respond to this specifically:

Unless a moderator is actually moderating (and you will know when that is happening; hint: it’s happening right now), they are members just like you, and entitled to their opinions. This is neither an endorsement nor a criticism of any particular moderator’s non-moderational comments, merely insight into how this all works.