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docsilence said:
I don't have anything against Worthington particularly, but he feels like someone who has a hell of an agent who gets him tons of work.
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This made me check IMDB because I was certain he hadn't done anything outside of Avatar in years, only to find that he's actually constantly in movies that just look really forgettable playing guys with names like "Jack", "David" and "Rick". When you can't afford a Hemsworth and you don't want to settle for a Frank Grillo, Sam is there.
 
JakeEkiss said:
Looking cool isn't a baseline anymore
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Well that's it, isn't it. It seems like Jimmy is still living in this idea of a world where if a movie is a 'spectacle,' then that is sufficient. Half the movies that come out every year are spectacles. Most big budget movies look (mostly, until the big final fight scene) visually amazing now.
 
docsilence said:
I don't have anything against Worthington particularly, but he feels like someone who has a hell of an agent who gets him tons of work.
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I don't either. He's constantly working for sure. Just that it's nothing roles. He did Terminator Salvation, Avatar, and Clash of the Titans back to back. I know Salvation and Titans weren't the best received, but those are still big named properties that should have put him in the top billing for much bigger things.
 
JakeEkiss said:
This made me check IMDB because I was certain he hadn't done anything outside of Avatar in years, only to find that he's actually constantly in movies that just look really forgettable playing guys with names like "Jack", "David" and "Rick". When you can't afford a Hemsworth and you don't want to settle for a Frank Grillo, Sam is there.
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DarthDre758 said:
I don't either. He's constantly working for sure. Just that it's nothing roles. He did Terminator Salvation, Avatar, and Clash of the Titans back to back. I know Salvation and Titans weren't the best received, but those are still big named properties that should have put him in the top billing for much bigger things.
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Yeah, he's never doing BAD work, he's just sort of THERE, which always makes me wonder if he's just got great representation to keep the work steady. I used to think this about Karl Urban a long time ago because he was in EVERYTHING and I didn't really have a strong vibe on him good or bad, but then they let the man be funny a few times and then I'm like "oh he's EXTREMELY charming, and casting directors love casting people who charm them." If you're an enjoyable presence in the audition they'll cast you forever. (I know Urban's got chops now but way back when I was like "this guy's agent is phenomenal."

Maybe Worthington is just really fun in person and so people will always find him work. It happens a lot with casting.
 
Damien said:
Well that's it, isn't it. It seems like Jimmy is still living in this idea of a world where if a movie is a 'spectacle,' then that is sufficient. Half the movies that come out every year are spectacles. Most big budget movies look (mostly, until the big final fight scene) visually amazing now.
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Thing is, he used to know this. He used to make movies that were genuinely exciting to watch and which still hold up even though the effects are chunky. I hated Titanic, but it's a more dramatic film. It's better than these.

I think part of it is the aliens are so heavily first peoples coded, but Jim makes the conflicts directly about the resources. Like, he wants the humans to feel like conquistadores, but the resources were only half of what the conquistadores wanted. They also wanted to subjugate, convert, and integrate the local people because they felt like they had a divine right to do so. 'Civilizing' the 'savages' or whatever. And it kept them in conflict when the resources were no longer the main concern. It was an ideological threat as much as anything. And in Avatar, the spacey scifi shit I think is too removed from that. Because, deep down, Jim doesn't actually want to write a story that grim. The closest he ever got to something like that was Strange Days with his former wife.

docsilence said:
Maybe Worthington is just really fun in person and so people will always find him work. It happens a lot with casting.
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I'd buy that, though unlike Urban, I don't think I've seen that shine through in stuff like interviews. Urban when he's just talking seems like a decently fun guy.
 
JakeEkiss said:
Thing is, he used to know this. He used to make movies that were genuinely exciting to watch and which still hold up even though the effects are chunky. I hated Titanic, but it's a more dramatic film. It's better than these.
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Sure. But also, and this is a hot take; I don't think Cameron is that great anyway. I think his reputation coasts on a few good films he made 30-40 years ago. I fucking hate Titanic for a whole host of reasons I don't need to get into. But even if you accept the idea that Titanic is a great film (again, I do not), what has he done since then that's even worth talking about?

He's just another guy that had a few great successes and now we're supposed to pretend he's actually really good at what he does. He isn't. Avatar is proof of that. Avatar is fucking shlop trash and it's also 100% his baby and most of his creative output for the last decade.
 
I heard someone refer to the Avatar movies as the film equivalent of those tech demos you see on TVs in Best Buy, and that's a pretty good explanation, I think. I definitely enjoy them- I love a good spectacle and something that feels like it both utilizes and pushes the medium. I'm also a sucker for anything with even half-decent lore to deep dive into. Would I say they're my favorite movies? Nah, far from it. But they're good for some escapism now and then. I'm certainly not one of the folks who, after seeing the first one, supposedly fell into a depression because the real world wasn't as beautiful as Pandora. There's certainly a place for escapist sci-fi schlock that's not at all subtle with its messaging. Supposedly the script for the 4th one got zero notes and stunned reactions from the studio, so I guess that's good? Not that movie studio execs are beacons of taste, but it's promising. Maaaaybe he's moving away from the heavy-handed environmental aspects? Or at least being more creative with them? I guess we'll see.... in 4-5 years.

If I'm being honest, though, Cameron is what I think I'd probably be like if I were a filmmaker- someone who has- and is so devoted to- his own ideas, however kooky they may be, that it almost becomes charming (depending on how you look at it). Love him or hate him, the guy's got a heck of an imagination and knows how to bash his toys together to make something fun.
 
joshsquash729 said:
Supposedly the script for the 4th one got zero notes and stunned reactions from the studio, so I guess that's good?
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Oh, I don't know. If I'd read the first script I'm sure I would have been stunned, too.
Also, at this point, it's Avatar and Cameron. I imagine the 4th script just says "screen go pretty, explosions, make billion dollars." Boom. Standing ovation from the suits.
 
I'm still bummed Avatar made as much money as it did because I adore the Battle Angel comics and from what I've read, Avatar started out as a CGI test for Cameron to prove to Fox that he could make Alita, which had always been his real passion project. But then Avatar became a money-printing machine and he handed Alita over to Rodriguez, who basically ran through the movie like a checklist. Rodriguez packed all the story points from the first couple volumes into the movie and he didn't give the audience enough time to care about any of it.

By all accounts, Jim Cameron is an absolute tyrant and one of the meanest sons of bitches in the business so it's a rare day that I root for his success. His dismissive contempt for the folks who point out how terrible all his 4K AI remasters look make him seem like a real tool, as well.
 
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I have no real feelings on him as a person either way, to be honest. I guess I admire his deep sea exploration efforts, and his general want to protect the environment, which we definitely need more of from big, influential names. I also heard that he helped pay for a hostage negotiator back when Guillermo Del Toro's father was kidnapped, which was cool of him. But I have no doubt that he may be a bit difficult to deal with in person (I mean, he's had 5 wives, so take of that what you will), and I don't love his stance on AI. Not even playing Devil's Advocate, I just don't know how much more of a menace he is than any other big director out there; they're not all evil, of course, but I'm sure we'd be surprised at how a few act behind closed doors. I suppose when you inch toward becoming a billionaire like Cameron supposedly is, and can really just do whatever you want whenever you want, it'll do things to ya.
 
docsilence said:
I've never heard anyone say they really didn't like them
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Then you haven’t talked to me.

Watching Avatar in theatres was one of the most repellent experiences of my life.

Now I’ve been off on Cameron since Titanic (I fucking hate that movie too, bloated tripe), so there is that. But man oh man I rarely want to walk out of a movie, and I had to be literally held in my seat a couple times by my then-girlfriend when I wanted out. Although this and also that awful Robin Hood movie with Russell Crowe allowed me to make a rule that we got to walk out if a movie was *that* bad.

I could go on and on and on about what I do not like about Avatar (including Sam Worthington, who I cannot stand to watch and who ruined the Clash of the Titans remake and The Vow for me), but mostly it’s that if a story and characters don’t “grab” me (and sorry but the characters and story of Avatar are relentlessly recycled and in a poorer form than their previous incarnations) then a bunch of CGI visuals actually *detracts* rather than adds for me. I don’t *love* CGI generally (the uncanny valley is always there for me, and nothing up on screen seems to be more interesting than my imagination anyway), and technical stuff in general actually annoys me if I’m not totally drawn in to the story. And I am not. drawn. in. to Avatar.

Don’t mean to yuck the yum of those who enjoy, but I can’t with those fucking movies. In my head, they are just Blue Cat People Fucking.
 
AceofKnaves said:
Then you haven’t talked to me.

Watching Avatar in theatres was one of the most repellent experiences of my life.

Now I’ve been off on Cameron since Titanic (I fucking hate that movie too, bloated tripe), so there is that. But man oh man I rarely want to walk out of a movie, and I had to be literally held in my seat a couple times by my then-girlfriend when I wanted out. Although this and also that awful Robin Hood movie with Russell Crowe allowed me to make a rule that we got to walk out if a movie was *that* bad.

I could go on and on and on about what I do not like about Avatar (including Sam Worthington, who I cannot stand to watch and who ruined the Clash of the Titans remake and The Vow for me), but mostly it’s that if a story and characters don’t “grab” me (and sorry but the characters and story of Avatar are relentlessly recycled and in a poorer form than their previous incarnations) then a bunch of CGI visuals actually *detracts* rather than adds for me. I don’t *love* CGI generally (the uncanny valley is always there for me, and nothing up on screen seems to be more interesting than my imagination anyway), and technical stuff in general actually annoys me if I’m not totally drawn in to the story. And I am not. drawn. in. to Avatar.

Don’t mean to yuck the yum of those who enjoy, but I can’t with those fucking movies. In my head, they are just Blue Cat People Fucking.
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I actually want to hear more opinions like this - I mean I have Native friends who have some shit to talk about it being Dances with Blue Wolves, but I'm mostly fascinated about how, like, it made all this money, but I see Firefly or Fifth Element cosplay at every con I table at and there's zero impact from one of the biggest money makers of all time. It's such a nothingburger, culturally.
 
docsilence said:
but I see Firefly or Fifth Element cosplay at every con I table at and there's zero impact from one of the biggest money makers of all time. It's such a nothingburger, culturally.
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Firefly and Fifth Element had interesting visuals (i.e. costuming, set design, world building elements), charming and unique characters, terrific acting, interesting/engaging stories, and worthwhile things to say under the surface.

Avatar has none of these things.

That's why no one cares about it ten seconds after leaving the theatre, and therefore no one cosplays as smurfs on ozempic.
 
Heh.
Want an even hotter take?
Cameron’s best movie was the original Terminator, and he’s been on a slow-and-steady creative decline ever since, a decline that stopped being slow and steady in the mid 90s.

And perhaps hottest take of all?
While I am somewhat charmed by The Fifth Element, Chris Tucker’s performance makes it impossible for me to rewatch. He’s just . . . the worst. The only time I ever enjoyed him onscreen was when Sam Jackson beat him to death with a bat in Jackie Brown.
 
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