Comic Book Talk

I love continuity, but not to the extent of some sites that are trying to like place every event in a specific year or even day. For me, all the stories happened and the history exists, nothing was erased, and that's how I like it. Marvel approaches that by sort of strategically ignoring inconvenient things or only bringing them up once in a while (I actually thought the introduction of the fictional Siancong War to deal with characters who fought in Vietnam was a good idea), and the overall shape works well enough even if every last little piece and line doesn't fit perfectly. DC deals with it by obsessing over it and rearranging the pieces over and over. There's stuff I enjoy about both styles and the legacy is a huge part of my enjoyment of these universes.
 
To me, the Craig Bond films were entirely their own continuity, divorced from the rest of the prior films, and I'm just fine with that. No reason they can't create another continuity again. The vast majority of the Bond films are stand-alone entries anyway, that only occasionally make reference to the previous films (and most of the time those are passing references). James Bond, probably more than any other long running series, is able to exist without worrying about canon.

As for comics, I'm of two minds. I DO care about continuity, and don't want contradictions to it (I miss the No Prize, when the editors had readers write in to explain away continuity mistakes, and those were adopted as canon). At the same time, I agree that superheroes existing in their OWN realities is better, and we don't need to obsess over the minor details (as @cmoney noted, retcons like the "Siancong War" are cool ways to address things that were previously anchored in historical events). Marvel, in my mind, has always handled this better overall, whereas DC just reboots every few years. I do think BOTH universes need to stay away from too many events that happen in the real world. I don't need to see 9/11 or the pandemic depicted in either continuity...especially considering that far worse events have been depicted in those comics. Tying someone like Captain America to such an event just waters down his history. Do we need to know when Captain America was rescued from the ice, and how it related to the events we experienced in our lives? I'd argue that we definitely don't.

I completely understand the desire to only ever have Peter Parker as Spider-Man or Bruce Wayne as Batman, but at the same time I think it runs the risk of getting stagnant and dull if those characters never progress. Spidey is a great example of this, in that the writers and editors at some point decided that he couldn't progress past a certain point, and even made the decision to roll back certain progressions like his marriage. Now, Peter is this dude stuck in an endless loop of being the down-on-his-luck single thirty-something that never really goes anywhere (and don't get me started on the whole travesty that has been done to his relationship with Mary Jane). Marvel and DC have both employed a type of decompressed time in their books, with events over one year seeming to unfold over five years in our time...and I have no issue with this, especially when you're dealing with each part of a story being released once per month. So, we see characters like Dick Grayson growing from a kid into a young man over time, and while Bruce still seems to be fairly spry, he does seem to have aged some over the years. I guess THAT is what I'd like to see Marvel apply to their books overall (I know they do this with some books like Fantastic Four). We don't need for Peter to be eighty or anything, but would it be horrible if he aged a bit, had kids, etc.? Would it be so bad if Peter was a bit of a seasoned hero mentoring Miles? At this point, shouldn't Spider-Man be shown the same respect that guys like Thor or Iron Man receive? One thing that I feel DC does better than Marvel overall is the sense of legacy. The relationships that Bruce has to Dick, Barry has to Wally, etc. really enforce the idea of the core characters having earned the respect of their younger counterparts. I'm not saying Marvel never does this...they certainly do with some heroes like Cap, but I'd like to see more of that legacy building in that universe.

I know I'm rambling a bit here, and I probably am not conveying my thoughts clearly, but I tried!
 
Marvel did those two Life Story minis where they had Spidey and the FF age in real time throughout the decades. They were enjoyable reads, but I like having my cake even after I've eaten it as well!
 
I completely understand the desire to only ever have Peter Parker as Spider-Man or Bruce Wayne as Batman, but at the same time I think it runs the risk of getting stagnant and dull if those characters never progress. Spidey is a great example of this, in that the writers and editors at some point decided that he couldn't progress past a certain point, and even made the decision to roll back certain progressions like his marriage. Now, Peter is this dude stuck in an endless loop of being the down-on-his-luck single thirty-something that never really goes anywhere...
Emphasis mine.

Sounds like a lot of comic book readers took this to heart and - endless loop of being thirty-somethings who never really go anywhere. Arrested development and all that - but maybe they are continuing to be inspired by and mirroring their favorite hero?

I don't mean this literally - that's a very disparaging and stereotypical take and there are many more well-adjusted and successful comic fans than not - but it's an interesting hypothetical to explore the correlation between subject and reader.
 
I'll add a shout out to Savage Dragon working in real time. I think it works solely because of having the same Writer/Penciller/Inker for the whole run makes staying on target possible. I don't think larger universes with dozens or hundreds of creators could pull it off.
 
As far as I know, they all were counting down to the Maker's release two years later or whatever. The others may not have been REAL-real time (one issue=one month), but I think the same amount of time is meant to have occurred by the time they all end?
 
Emphasis mine.

Sounds like a lot of comic book readers took this to heart and - endless loop of being thirty-somethings who never really go anywhere. Arrested development and all that - but maybe they are continuing to be inspired by and mirroring their favorite hero?

I don't mean this literally - that's a very disparaging and stereotypical take and there are many more well-adjusted and successful comic fans than not - but it's an interesting hypothetical to explore the correlation between subject and reader.
Certainly possible. I just don't like it as a reader because it feels lazy on the part of writers. Having a character stuck in the same spot emotionally forever just doesn't do much for me. I'm not saying they have to get all "edgy" and fundamentally change the character...that's just as bad in my opinion. I'd just like to see Peter continue on some sort of trajectory like he did for the first few decades of his existence.
 
I'm not as stressed by questions like "What year was Peter Parker born?" As I said in another thread, the less superheroes deal with the real world, the better. The logistical questions give DC a huge edge, too. You don't have to worry about how Batman feels about 9/11 because he lives in a made-up city.
Wonder how you'd feel with Zdarsky's Cap.
 
Wonder how you'd feel with Zdarsky's Cap.
This is the exact run I had in mind when I wrote that. I generally like Chip's work. Spider-Man: Life Story rules.

I'm interested in where he's going thematically, but I find it an unpleasant read. He's sullying my superhero story with W's war in the Middle East.

The nice thing about Cap is that, for a war hero, he's "clean." He was on the Western Front, killing Nazis. He wasn't at Abu Ghraib, killing civilians, or using chemical weapons on the enemy. Now, I'm sure the WWII military history I know has been sanitized by Hollywood, but I think those are the prevailing narratives around WWII (against the Nazis, anyway). Korea, Vietnam, and the Middle East are viewed through a different lens.

I'm not opposed to art that challenges me or makes me uncomfortable—in fact, those are my go-to movies—but it's hard to stomach in a cape book.
I'll add a shout out to Savage Dragon working in real time.
Not to derail this conversation or pull a Jerry Seinfeld, but what's the deal with Savage Dragon? Admittedly, I've never read a single issue, but I saw a few panels on Reddit a few years ago. It featured a woman, vulva out, getting assaulted by Mickey Mouse. Is Savage Dragon smut?
 
This is the exact run I had in mind when I wrote that. I generally like Chip's work. Spider-Man: Life Story rules.

I'm interested in where he's going thematically, but I find it an unpleasant read. He's sullying my superhero story with W's war in the Middle East.
Agreed. Wasn't going for a gotcha, was genuinely curious.

You and I think a lot alike about most things.
 
I'll add a shout out to Savage Dragon working in real time. I think it works solely because of having the same Writer/Penciller/Inker for the whole run makes staying on target possible. I don't think larger universes with dozens or hundreds of creators could pull it off.
I never read Savage Dragon when it was new, but since it was the one Image book I had no experience I decided to check it out since Todd's doing a figure of the main character. Skipping forward I checked out the more recent issues and it's a vast departure concerning the quality of art. Larson's Spiderman stuff and even his Savage Dragon early work was very good. His current art reminds me of the scratchings we get from Frank Miller now. Granted Miller's been dealing with major medical issues, so that can be largely excused. However Larson's switch to THAT style is inexcusable unless he's dealing with some similar issue (besides profound burnout) depriving him of most of his artistic ability. It's that bad. I can't comment on the story as I haven't read all of it, but the art just threw me for a loop in a jarringly bad way.
 
Not to derail this conversation or pull a Jerry Seinfeld, but what's the deal with Savage Dragon? Admittedly, I've never read a single issue, but I saw a few panels on Reddit a few years ago. It featured a woman, vulva out, getting assaulted by Mickey Mouse. Is Savage Dragon smut?
Occasionally. He had a run a few years ago where he realized his book was always M and could do such things. Even his early stuff was boundary pushing, but they covered the naughty bits. You see the more salacious ones online, but they are a small fraction of the now thousands and thousands of pages to the story.
I never read Savage Dragon when it was new, but since it was the one Image book I had no experience I decided to check it out since Todd's doing a figure of the main character. Skipping forward I checked out the more recent issues and it's a vast departure concerning the quality of art. Larson's Spiderman stuff and even his Savage Dragon early work was very good. His current art reminds me of the scratchings we get from Frank Miller now. Granted Miller's been dealing with major medical issues, so that can be largely excused. However Larson's switch to THAT style is inexcusable unless he's dealing with some similar issue (besides profound burnout) depriving him of most of his artistic ability. It's that bad. I can't comment on the story as I haven't read all of it, but the art just threw me for a loop in a jarringly bad way.
While I agree I liked his earlier work more (which is true for most of the Image crew for me personally), I don't think it's that he got bad. He's doing what he feels like doing as he gets older. I respect that.
 
I honestly couldn't believe the writer was challenged. 1) Who cares? 2) Reboot it. The Craig films themselves were a soft reboot. 3) Stick it in another part of Bond's life.
Off topic, but they really should have gone the route years ago that MI6 used the Bond moniker as an alias, and it is assigned to a new person every few years - creating an identity that was effectively the boogeyman amongst the evildoers around the world - which is why he always introduced himself so openly and there were different Bonds.

I think for comics it would be more interesting if the characters aged to some extent, but look at the response to that scenario occurring in the MCU, with many fans want their favorites to be recast instead of moving on to new characters even though the MCU has been clearly designed to work in "realish" time to reflect the actors naturally aging.

But how they tend to handle it works for me, just slowly change the reference points, but I also think it works better in DC land where the cities and countries and timeline is separate from the "real world". Of course comics used to mainly be read by thousands of kids and teens who might read for 5 or 10 years and then move on - so there was turnover in the readership. Writers never expected when backstories were created that they would have readers who have been following continuity for 30 and 40 and 50 years...and that meant WWII or other touchstones were now a distant memory.
 
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